1. How does Tolkien (1964) define fantasy Compare and contrast this to the other definitions from last week’s reader.
2. Is Tolkien’s notion of the ‘faery story’ linked to fantasy genre? How closely?
3. What parallels can you find between A Wizard of Earthsea and the Harry Potter franchise?
4. What other influences does Burn (2005) suggest for Harry Potter?
5. How does the fantasy genre relate to modern media such as video games?
6. Why does the religious right in the US condemn fantasy, according to Cockrell (2004)? On what grounds does Cockrell defend fantasy literature, using Harry Potter as example?
How does Tolkien (1964) define Fantasy---Compare and contrast with last week's one.
Fantasy, according to Tolkien, is believed to be the human mind capable of forming mental images of things, which are not actually present, and it is the working of Imagination.
So, Fantasy as Tolkien says, is the power to realise imaginations, as it surpasses the primary world through its artistic creativity, which is believed to be a powerful form of art (p.44).
However, this is different and opposed to last week's definition of Fantasy, as it is an overt violation of what is generally accepted as possibility.
Hi Poe Thank you for starting. As you said Tolkien thought that fantasy is a human mind and also he thought that sub-creation and imagination are a gift from God to human. According to Grubbs,D-“ Tolkien, Fantasy and Magic” states that Tolkien believes “ language is a kind of ‘magic” because it can describe things that do not exist and perhaps never existed at all’(www. Wfial.org/index.cfm?fuseaction=art Other.article-9) . In addition, Tolkien in the “On fairy-stories” said “fantasy remains a human right: we make in our measure and in our derivative mode, because we are made: and not only made, but made in the image and likeness of a maker” (P, 52).
I agree with your saying that language is a kind of magic, as Tolkien also reveals that everyone has human language, and can say anything which can then be imagined by people. Remember. Tolkien defines Fantasy as “forming mental images of things in human minds,” and these images should have “the inner consistency of reality,” which could be created in a second world, and that means, not our primary world, but the World of Imagination.
Is Tolkien notion of the "Faery Story" linked to fantasy genre,and how closely?
First of all, let's see what a fairy story is. According to Tolkien (1964), a fairy story is one which touches on or uses Faerie, whatever its own main purpose may be: satire, adventure, moraliry,fantasy.
"Faerie itself may perhaps most nearly be translated by magic - but it is magic of a perculiar mood and power, at the furthest pole from the vulger devices of the laborious, scientific, magician." (Tolkien 1964, p. 15)
So, Tolkien's notion of faery story is very closely linked to fantasy genre, as they both use power of thinking, power of imagination, and power of the language used.
What parralels can you find between A Wizard of Earthsea and the Harry Potter franchise?
In A Wizard of Earthsea, Ged, the protagonist of the story, had someone who supported him in his first confrontation, and that was Vetch. Harry Potter, a protagonist as well, had Ron for his support.
Both Ged and Harry found out when they were so young, that they were capable of becoming Magic.
They also both grew up without knowing any destination where they would head to.
They both attended magic schools to improve their magics, and as a result, they performed really well afterwards.
I think, there are many parallels between these two stories but I have just mentioned some of those.
What other influences does Burn (2005) suggest for Harry Potter?
Burn(2005)reminds that Harry Potter's novels look backwards in time to their sources in folktale and children's literature. But on the other hand, they are rooted in the contemporary moment. This means that they contains structures influenced, above all, by the images and practises of video games.
Burns also cites that, among other things, the arcade-like game of Quidditch, and the lists, maps, and other means of puzzle-solving and game-survival that characterise the books.
There is a big question whether games influence books or books influence games, and this is stll debatable. We have agreed that in Tolkren's stories, they also have maps, lists, puzzles and so on, and the Lord of the Rings is one of the most popular of modern game genres.
Some stories as Marie-Laure Ryan observes are ideally adapted to serve as the basis of games(2001) Similarly, Harry Potter's stories may be organised around the kinds of structures that make good games: quests, magical objects, helpers, monster opponents, a bounded fantasy world, a puzzle dynamic.
I’m sorry, I have one question, although it is not related to this assessment.
There is an explanation of assessment 3 in our ‘paper handbook’ that we have to analyze one of the primary texts according to Vogler’s (1998) ‘mythic structure’. But, I cannot find Vogler’s reading material in ‘Critical Reader’ and others. Who is Vogler, and what is his ‘mythic structure’?
Hi Poe As you described fantasy and fairy stories have a lot of the similarity and they are related to each others. Using magic, supernatural powers, imagination and so on are its specifics characters. I think that fantasy and fairy stories always have gotten from history, folklore and cultural believes. In addition, the fairy stories usually shorter than fantasy.
Hi Poe I hope you have a good weekend. As you mentioned to say that the games influences to Harry potter or vice verse is a question that is difficult to answer is difficult. As Burn (2005) says Horry Potter Stories have some structures for creation of games, “quests, magical objects, helpers, monster opponents, a bounded fantasy word, a puzzle dynamic” (parag, 2).
1. The figure of Harry Potter essentially likes the fairytale proxy for the child. He offers at least a fantasy of power in a world run by adults.
2. He likes the child hero of manga and anime (Japanese comicstrips and animations).
3. His recuperation of techno-magic ‘scavenged from an inherited Wasteland in a Romantic gesture of faith in humanity’.
4. The wistful appeal of the orphan changeling, a figure which runs from folktale through the history of Victorian, Edwardian and post-war children’s literature.
Burn (2005, p.6) also quotes the following;
“His appeal for children is rooted, for some critics, in his similarity to the protagonists of European folktale (Black, 2003; Tucker, 1999)”.
Additionally, Burn (2005) points out that the similarity to ‘The load of the Rings’ (Tolkien).
i.e., 1. “Aragog is suspiciously similar to one of Tolkien’s minor ‘bosses’, Shelob the spider" (Burn 2005, p.6). 2. “The frequent references made by the children to The Load of the Rings recognize some of these references, and Iona makes explicit how the similarity of Harry to Frodo revolves around a particular set of characteristics” (Burn 2005, p.13).
I cannot find the direct answer for this question or cannot summarize it, but I think the followings are the most related part to the question in Burn’s material... How do you think?
Although Burn (2005, p.3) points out the three functions of cross-media narrative transformations, I think the third one is related to this question. That is, “the orientational (Lemke, 2002) or interactive function (Kress and van Leeuwen, 2002), or interpersonal (Kress and van Leeuwen, 1996) – how the text orients itself towards its audience”.
There are three questions (Burn 2005); 1. How are we encouraged to position ourselves ‘with’ Harry?
In the book and film, the actions of Harry are sequence of actions which we observe from the outside. On the other hand, in the game, we play Harry.
2. How are we brought into an affective relation with the text?
We play Harry, which offers a quite different set of resources for our imaginative engagement with the game.
3. How does the text convince us of its authenticity, its credibility?
The game authentic because it allow player to be Harry Potter in certain specific, exciting ways.
The prevailing belief among fundamentalist Christian parents is that “fantasy equals deceit, that fantasy and storytelling ‘will lead to lying and other deceitful behavior’” (Cockrell 2004, p.25). “Harry Potter’s world may be fictional, but the timeless pagan practices is promotes are real and deadly’ (Cockrell 2004, p.25). “Scripture forbids the reading of such Satanic material” (Cockrell 2004, p.25). However, Cockrell (2004) points out the reasons behind the blame. “The first, that Harry is too close to home” (Cockrell 2004, p.25). “He lives where we live, not in Narnia or Earthsea, but in London, on Privet Drive, a world in which it is becoming increasingly impossible to insulate children from unwanted influences, despite parental encouragement to (Cockrell 2004, p.26). “The second, that Harry’s detractors are skillfully parodied in Harry’s books” (Cockrell 2004, p.25), because “deploring Harry Potter is big business” (Cockrell 2004, p.25).
Cockrell (2004) claims that “Rowling insists that magic in Harry’s world is a skill to be mastered, that is has no connection with religion or theology, or with supernatural spirits good or bad”(Cockrell 2004, p.27). “Rowling is at some pains to make with the alchemists who were the precursors of modern science” (Cockrell 2004, p.27), and then, “Rowling’s equation of magic with science is rooted in the tradition of natural philosophy” (Cockrell 2004, p.27).
Cockrell (2004) suggests that Rowling’s magic is different from the miracles of the Bible. Therefore, there is no trouble with Harry.
I cannot make clear understanding about your opinion in the first posting that “this is different and opposed to last week's definition of Fantasy, as it is an overt violation of what is generally accepted as possibility”.
What points Tolkin mentioned are different and opposed to who’s definition of Fantasy?
Tolkien (1964, .44) says “if written with art, the prime value of fairy-stories will simply be that value which, as literature, they share with other literary forms. But fairy-stories offer also, in a peculiar degree oor mode, these things: Fantasy, Recovery, Escape, Consolation”.
I think Tolkien does not use the word Fantasy as one of genres.
However, at the same time, Tolkien (1964, p.63) says “piece of more serious fairy-story ‘fantasy’”.
I think this word ‘fantasy’ may be used as fantagy genre.
If so, fantagy genre is included in fairy-stories.
Although I already mentioned my previous posting, I think Tolkien (1964) does not use the word Fantasy as one of genres. If so, Tolkien (1964) defines the ganre of fairy-storis, but does not define the genre of fantasy.
Therefore I try to compare his definition of the faire-stories to others’, although it dose not accuretely compare his definition of fantasy genre to others’.
Tolkin rules out such as ‘A Voyage to Lilliput’ as travellers’ tales. He argues “such tales report many marvels, but they are marvels to be seen in this mortal world in some region of our own time and space” (p.16).
He rules out any story that uses the machinery of Dream as in Lewis Carroll’s Alice stories. He claims “if a waking writer tells you that his tale is only a thing imagined in his sleep, he cheats deliberately the primal desire at the heart of Faerie: the realization, independent of the conceiving mind, of imagined wonder (p.18).
He also rules out “beast-fable” because “in stories in which no human being is concerned; or in which the animals are the heroes and heroines, and men and women, if they appear, were mere adjuncts” (p.19).
England construction of fantasy genre does not set such limitation. And then, Attebry (1980, p.3) says “any narrative which includes as a significant part of its make-up some violation of what the author clearly believes to the natural law – that is fantasy”.
On the other hand, American construction is “giving the name fantasy to what is only a minor subtype of fantasy” (Attebery 1980, p.4).
So far, I do not know the detail of American construction, and the intentions of Tolkin and the construction may be different, but I think the setting of limitation of Tolkin is rather near to American construction.
19 comments:
1. How does Tolkien (1964) define fantasy Compare and contrast this to the other definitions from last week’s reader.
2. Is Tolkien’s notion of the ‘faery story’ linked to fantasy genre? How closely?
3. What parallels can you find between A Wizard of Earthsea and the Harry Potter franchise?
4. What other influences does Burn (2005) suggest for Harry Potter?
5. How does the fantasy genre relate to modern media such as video games?
6. Why does the religious right in the US condemn fantasy, according to Cockrell (2004)? On what grounds does Cockrell defend fantasy literature, using Harry Potter as example?
Hello Group 1 Bloggers!
I think I should start this week's discussion.
How does Tolkien (1964) define Fantasy---Compare and contrast with last week's one.
Fantasy, according to Tolkien, is believed to be the human mind capable of forming mental images of things, which are not actually present, and it is the working of Imagination.
So, Fantasy as Tolkien says, is the power to realise imaginations, as it surpasses the primary world through its artistic creativity, which is believed to be a powerful form of art (p.44).
However, this is different and opposed to last week's definition of Fantasy, as it is an overt violation of what is generally accepted as possibility.
See you later !
Hi Poe
Thank you for starting. As you said Tolkien thought that fantasy is a human mind and also he thought that sub-creation and imagination are a gift from God to human. According to Grubbs,D-“ Tolkien, Fantasy and Magic” states that Tolkien believes “ language is a kind of ‘magic” because it can describe things that do not exist and perhaps never existed at all’(www. Wfial.org/index.cfm?fuseaction=art Other.article-9) . In addition, Tolkien in the “On fairy-stories” said “fantasy remains a human right: we make in our measure and in our derivative mode, because we are made: and not only made, but made in the image and likeness of a maker” (P, 52).
Hi Bahram!
Thank you for responding.
I agree with your saying that language is a kind of magic, as Tolkien also reveals that everyone has human language, and can say anything which can then be imagined by people.
Remember. Tolkien defines Fantasy as “forming mental images of things in human minds,” and these images should have “the inner consistency of reality,” which could be created in a second world, and that means, not our primary world, but the World of Imagination.
Hello again!
Is Tolkien notion of the "Faery Story" linked to fantasy genre,and how closely?
First of all, let's see what a fairy story is.
According to Tolkien (1964), a fairy story is one which touches on or uses Faerie, whatever its own main purpose may be: satire, adventure, moraliry,fantasy.
"Faerie itself may perhaps most nearly be translated by magic - but it is magic of a perculiar mood and power, at the furthest pole from the vulger devices of the laborious, scientific, magician." (Tolkien 1964, p. 15)
So, Tolkien's notion of faery story is very closely linked to fantasy genre, as they both use power of thinking, power of imagination, and power of the language used.
Hello everyone!
What parralels can you find between A Wizard of Earthsea and the Harry Potter franchise?
In A Wizard of Earthsea, Ged, the protagonist of the story, had someone who supported him in his first confrontation, and that was Vetch. Harry Potter, a protagonist as well, had Ron for his support.
Both Ged and Harry found out when they were so young, that they were capable of becoming Magic.
They also both grew up without knowing any destination where they would head to.
They both attended magic schools to improve their magics, and as a result, they performed really well afterwards.
I think, there are many parallels between these two stories but I have just mentioned some of those.
Can someone find out and add some more please?
Hi again Bloggers!
What other influences does Burn
(2005) suggest for Harry Potter?
Burn(2005)reminds that Harry Potter's novels look backwards in time to their sources in folktale and children's literature. But on the other hand, they are rooted in the contemporary moment. This means that they contains structures influenced, above all, by the images and practises of video games.
Burns also cites that, among other things, the arcade-like game of Quidditch, and the lists, maps, and other means of puzzle-solving and game-survival that characterise the books.
There is a big question whether games influence books or books influence games, and this is stll debatable. We have agreed that in Tolkren's stories, they also have maps, lists, puzzles and so on, and the Lord of the Rings is one of the most popular of modern game genres.
Some stories as Marie-Laure Ryan observes are ideally adapted to serve as the basis of games(2001) Similarly, Harry Potter's stories may be organised around the kinds of structures that make good games: quests, magical objects, helpers, monster opponents, a bounded fantasy world, a puzzle dynamic.
See ya!
Hi group:
I’m sorry, I have one question, although it is not related to this assessment.
There is an explanation of assessment 3 in our ‘paper handbook’ that we have to analyze one of the primary texts according to Vogler’s (1998) ‘mythic structure’. But, I cannot find Vogler’s reading material in ‘Critical Reader’ and others. Who is Vogler, and what is his ‘mythic structure’?
Hi Poe
As you described fantasy and fairy stories have a lot of the similarity and they are related to each others. Using magic, supernatural powers, imagination and so on are its specifics characters. I think that fantasy and fairy stories always have gotten from history, folklore and cultural believes. In addition, the fairy stories usually shorter than fantasy.
Hi Poe
I hope you have a good weekend. As you mentioned to say that the games influences to Harry potter or vice verse is a question that is difficult to answer is difficult. As Burn (2005) says Horry Potter Stories have some structures for creation of games, “quests, magical objects, helpers, monster opponents, a bounded fantasy word, a puzzle dynamic” (parag, 2).
This is my answer for Question 4
Burn’s (2005) suggestions on p.2 are followings;
1. The figure of Harry Potter essentially likes the fairytale proxy for the child. He offers at least a fantasy of power in a world run by adults.
2. He likes the child hero of manga and anime (Japanese comicstrips and animations).
3. His recuperation of techno-magic ‘scavenged from an inherited Wasteland in a Romantic gesture of faith in humanity’.
4. The wistful appeal of the orphan changeling, a figure which runs from folktale through the history of Victorian, Edwardian and post-war children’s literature.
Burn (2005, p.6) also quotes the following;
“His appeal for children is rooted, for some critics, in his similarity to the protagonists of European folktale (Black, 2003; Tucker, 1999)”.
Additionally, Burn (2005) points out that the similarity to ‘The load of the Rings’ (Tolkien).
i.e.,
1. “Aragog is suspiciously similar to one of Tolkien’s minor ‘bosses’, Shelob the spider" (Burn 2005, p.6).
2. “The frequent references made by the children to The Load of the Rings recognize some of these references, and Iona makes explicit how the similarity of Harry to Frodo revolves around a particular set of characteristics” (Burn 2005, p.13).
This is my answer for Question 5
I cannot find the direct answer for this question or cannot summarize it, but I think the followings are the most related part to the question in Burn’s material...
How do you think?
Although Burn (2005, p.3) points out the three functions of cross-media narrative transformations, I think the third one is related to this question. That is, “the orientational (Lemke, 2002) or interactive function (Kress and van Leeuwen, 2002), or interpersonal (Kress and van Leeuwen, 1996) – how the text orients itself towards its audience”.
There are three questions (Burn 2005);
1. How are we encouraged to position ourselves ‘with’ Harry?
In the book and film, the actions of Harry are sequence of actions which we observe from the outside. On the other hand, in the game, we play Harry.
2. How are we brought into an affective relation with the text?
We play Harry, which offers a quite different set of resources for our imaginative engagement with the game.
3. How does the text convince us of its authenticity, its credibility?
The game authentic because it allow player to be Harry Potter in certain specific, exciting ways.
This is my answer for Question 6.
The prevailing belief among fundamentalist Christian parents is that “fantasy equals deceit, that fantasy and storytelling ‘will lead to lying and other deceitful behavior’” (Cockrell 2004, p.25). “Harry Potter’s world may be fictional, but the timeless pagan practices is promotes are real and deadly’ (Cockrell 2004, p.25). “Scripture forbids the reading of such Satanic material” (Cockrell 2004, p.25). However, Cockrell (2004) points out the reasons behind the blame. “The first, that Harry is too close to home” (Cockrell 2004, p.25). “He lives where we live, not in Narnia or Earthsea, but in London, on Privet Drive, a world in which it is becoming increasingly impossible to insulate children from unwanted influences, despite parental encouragement to (Cockrell 2004, p.26). “The second, that Harry’s detractors are skillfully parodied in Harry’s books” (Cockrell 2004, p.25), because “deploring Harry Potter is big business” (Cockrell 2004, p.25).
Cockrell (2004) claims that “Rowling insists that magic in Harry’s world is a skill to be mastered, that is has no connection with religion or theology, or with supernatural spirits good or bad”(Cockrell 2004, p.27). “Rowling is at some pains to make with the alchemists who were the precursors of modern science” (Cockrell 2004, p.27), and then, “Rowling’s equation of magic with science is rooted in the tradition of natural philosophy” (Cockrell 2004, p.27).
Cockrell (2004) suggests that Rowling’s magic is different from the miracles of the Bible. Therefore, there is no trouble with Harry.
Hi Poeelama and Bahrm:
I’m sorry, before I read your postings, I had posted my answer for question 4. Maybe, my answer is the first part of Poeelama’s answer.
I’ll reread Burn’s suggestion concerning video games influence for Harry Potter.
Hi, Poeelama;
I cannot make clear understanding about your opinion in the first posting that “this is different and opposed to last week's definition of Fantasy, as it is an overt violation of what is generally accepted as possibility”.
What points Tolkin mentioned are different and opposed to who’s definition of Fantasy?
Hi, Porrlama;
For Question 2…
Tolkien (1964, .44) says “if written with art, the prime value of fairy-stories will simply be that value which, as literature, they share with other literary forms. But fairy-stories offer also, in a peculiar degree oor mode, these things: Fantasy, Recovery, Escape, Consolation”.
I think Tolkien does not use the word Fantasy as one of genres.
However, at the same time, Tolkien (1964, p.63) says “piece of more serious fairy-story ‘fantasy’”.
I think this word ‘fantasy’ may be used as fantagy genre.
If so, fantagy genre is included in fairy-stories.
Hi, Porrlama and Bahran;
For Question 1…
Although I already mentioned my previous posting, I think Tolkien (1964) does not use the word Fantasy as one of genres. If so, Tolkien (1964) defines the ganre of fairy-storis, but does not define the genre of fantasy.
Therefore I try to compare his definition of the faire-stories to others’, although it dose not accuretely compare his definition of fantasy genre to others’.
Tolkin rules out such as ‘A Voyage to Lilliput’ as travellers’ tales. He argues “such tales report many marvels, but they are marvels to be seen in this mortal world in some region of our own time and space” (p.16).
He rules out any story that uses the machinery of Dream as in Lewis Carroll’s Alice stories. He claims “if a waking writer tells you that his tale is only a thing imagined in his sleep, he cheats deliberately the primal desire at the heart of Faerie: the realization, independent of the conceiving mind, of imagined wonder (p.18).
He also rules out “beast-fable” because “in stories in which no human being is concerned; or in which the animals are the heroes and heroines, and men and women, if they appear, were mere adjuncts” (p.19).
England construction of fantasy genre does not set such limitation. And then, Attebry (1980, p.3) says “any narrative which includes as a significant part of its make-up some violation of what the author clearly believes to the natural law – that is fantasy”.
On the other hand, American construction is “giving the name fantasy to what is only a minor subtype of fantasy” (Attebery 1980, p.4).
So far, I do not know the detail of American construction, and the intentions of Tolkin and the construction may be different, but I think the setting of limitation of Tolkin is rather near to American construction.
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